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Chris Ward
Big Ring
Posts:188
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| 06/09/2008 12:11 AM |
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Wow, almost all of MTB issues addressed in this one thread. I don't even know where to start.
I haven't ridden the new section but if it where I think it was the closed section was a wash out and getting worse. It was kind of a technical section. If a section of trail is being closed is technical than it should be replaced with a technical section. Not every trail should be fast, we should have a good mix which means some slow and technical sections. I haven't ridden the new section so I can't really comment. If it did replace a technical section and it is not technical, I will talk with Mike to see if we can maybe build some sort obstacle in the new section, maybe we could build one of those bumps. :)
While races do prompt some good maintenance to occur on trails, over all their impact to the physical condition of the trails is negative. You have anywhere 50 to over 100 riders on the trail in a very short period of time, and in our area they are usually doing multiple laps. The biggest impact is the widening of the trail which happens either because racers are passing each other or they are taking short cuts. The other negative impact is when promoters don't cancel races due to rain. This one thing that mountain bikers can do to cause the most damage to a trail system, that is to have a race in wet conditions. When ever this is done it makes Mountain bikers look really bad in the eyes of the land manager and other users. Because of the high volume of traffic a race can bring to a trail system the standard for course being ridable should be higher on race day than it is any other day, often it is the oposite on race day. There are some good benefits to racing and I think it is good that we are having races in the Louisville area, but I think we have to be smart about it. Each trail system should only allow one race a year, and the race should only go on in dry conditions.
I forgot about the litter, every year after race we find gu packages and other stuff all over the trail. The leave no trace rule applies during the race to......
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fasterdulin
Posts:100
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| 06/09/2008 12:11 AM |
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Just thought I should clarify a couple of points, starting with the "open" trail phenomenon. Many of the sections where trails are being rerouted are through areas that are choked by an invasive species called japanese honeysuckle. When the Olmsted Parks Conservancy removes this highly damaging plant material, it exposes the hillsides and at first, looks much more open than it does now. Historically (i.e. before the Federal Hwy Administration built 64 and used the honeysuckle as a screening plant), Cherokee and Iroquois had very similar character: open hardwood forest with very little understory. The tornado of 74 obliterated the tree canopy in Cherokee and the honeysuckle took over, creating a pretty bleak understory and basically ravaging the remaining ecosystem.
Now, with the help of grant money from agencies like the EPA, LOPC is removing the honeysuckle and other invasive species and restoring the plant and animal life in the park as they go. This has presented a unique opportunity for all trail users in that we can now correct unsustainable trail conditions and build new trails into the fabic of the park as part of the ongoing restoration work. This improves the overall trail flow, helps prevent trail erosion, improves sightlines (which will reduce user conflicts like mountain bikers coming around a blind turn at speed and forcing someone off a trail - or off a rock ledge) and ultimately creates a far more durable trail tread. Furthermore, by integrating with the ongoing restoration work, the trail work days become part of larger volunteer days, which is great because it generally means more trail gets built in less time and mountain bikers and non-mountain bikers can work together on projects of common interest.
Unfortunately though, while many of the new trails around the park have a more open character, none of the singletrack trails are wholly accessible as defined by the Americans with Disbilities Act. Sustainable, natural surface trails can be built up to 15% with some short runs at a higher percentage whereas ADA compliant corridors can't exceed 8% and even at that grade, must have a landing every 30 horizontal feet. So although it might feel like a wheelchair ramp to the most extreme mountain bikers, no trail in any park is even close to a wheelchair ramp.
With regards to racing; as far as I know, no re-routing is planned or has been done to any trails in any park specifically because of a race. The no-net re alignment was pushed ahead of all the other trailwork planned along that corridor because the lower trail (from the bridge) was severely eroded and there had been reports of several "near-misses" along the cliff band. I'm sure some folks might disagree, but I don't love the idea of a mountain biker being part of a high-speed crash that knocked someone down a rocky drainage - doesn't sound like particularly good pr. As the majority of the trails are designed as multi-use, the safety of all trail users and the overall health of the trail tread are paramount - regardless of whether or not races are held. Of course, if people are interested in promoting races in the parks, they are encouraged to come out and participate in trail improvement and maintenance sessions. It's a very easy way to give back and it helps lighten the load on the regular volunteers.
Hope this helps clear things up. Thanks again to everyone that came out and lent a hand - we appreciate it. |
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bigcountry
Training Wheels
Posts:8
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| 06/09/2008 12:18 AM |
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Rusty, it is not about the bikes, its not about what bike you are riding. It's not about KHS race bikes, cannondale race bikes, specialized race bikes, felt race bikes, or any other brand. I am not sure what point you are trying to make nor am i actually sure of what makes a "xc race bike." Is it high end components? $$$$ frame? Maybe you can clarify.
It's about grassroots for the joy of riding. The majorioty of the people here and what now represents kymba are focused on racing. Racing isn't what is going to keep the people coming back, if anything the kymba/racing connection has alienated a lot of folks. Look how many users use to post and be involved and no longer...hmmmm wonder why that is? Racing isn't going to keep people coming back, it is fun and technical trails...to which cherokee is becoming a wide dirt path that is accessible to wheelchairs...jhammer, you ain't seen nothing yet.
That is great that donations are being made...oh and about your little comment about me doing nothing, you are completely way off base. I do think it is ironic that you are someone know to ride trails not open to bikes, but now you are Mr. Involved Trail advocate.
And I realize i am out of shape. I do own a mirror. But i hardly look at you and see the poster boy of "in shape." W/ that nose of yours, maybe the poster boy of Chic-fil-a, I dunno though.
Look a section has been rerouted for a race. A section that i and many others have ridden for many years w/o issue. A one day event has changed the course for a lot of people who do not race and choose not to race from here on now. There was no need to change it, well except for the race. One more thing that leaves a bad taste in our mouths.
Jeff - Glad you like the lenses. the 50 1.8 is the sharptes lens for the money.
there are going to be certain places people can't ride and handle. People need to understand their limits, and even when they do, accidents do happen. I have hit my head on a branch. Should every branch be cut down? I mean really, where does the "PC trail" begin and end?
The eyesore i am talking about is the way the old trail was covered...altough if i were a betting man, I would guess it will be uncovered by the end of the week.
But the point is, some people are into racing, but most are not. Some talk about the donations and good PR from racing, but what happens when racing becomes unprofitable and no longer happens?
Look at what HMBA has done. Some will argue, well there are races in indiana...but it isn't racing that keeps the people coming back to the trails in the great hoosier state...it's a grassroots effort to make people aware of fun and technical trails.
Do you realize how many people bypass Louisville area trails and go to NC, TN and other parts of KY? Trails modified for races sure aren't gonna get them to come and ride them...LOL!
Chris Ward, watch out, you'll get attacked by the elitist! LOL!!! Good thing they do everything.
I have had my kymba fill for now, if you have any more questions, feel free to shoot me an email: holzking@hotmail.com |
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Chris Ward
Big Ring
Posts:188
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| 06/09/2008 12:45 AM |
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I have had multiple people tell me that they feel KYMBA is all about racing and that it was a real turn off. So BC I know where you are coming from , you are not the only one that feels that way about KYMBA and this forum.
The real problem is we don't have a lot people stepping up to help any more. It would be great if someone or multiple people would step forward to help organize more recreational type rides/cook outs, but people just don't seem interested in taking leadership rules. The racers are the most motivated people in our sport as far organizing stuff goes. The problem with that is they are only in to that one aspect of the sport, which is completely their choice and one that they can't be blamed for. So the only big events that are happening are the races, so that really the only thing people have to talk about on here. Put that all together and you have a forum that is pretty much focused on one thing. People who are not into that one thing are put off by it.
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fasterdulin
Posts:100
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| 06/09/2008 7:07 AM |
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Thanks for the insight Country - it's always good to hear about what the rest of the mountain bikers are saying. In the seven hours I was out on the trail this Saturday, I didn't hear one complaint, but that's not the point. Thoughtful, balanced input is critical - whether you're discussing trails or people's noses. (it's worth noting, however, in the weeks of planning that we've been doing along the trail corridor, I have seen several people walk bikes across the ledge - so I'm assuming not everyone is comfortable with a 18" trail tread next to a 15' drop - but again, I am assuming)
I'm also really glad you brought up the HMBA and their trails. All of the newly constructed trails at Brown Co are sustainably built and follow the IMBA standards - which means they do not exceed certain grades, maintain good sight lines and are designed to take users to points of interest (and in that same vein, avoid dangerous conditions). I've only ridden there once, so I'm no expert, but I saw a lot of very good trail that happens to be built to the same standards used on our new re-routes. Of course, we are coming up a little short at poor old bastardized Cherokee as the park is only 800 acres (which includes two golf courses) vs Brown Co's 2200 acres. We also have the special reality of being in a dense urban area and having to share Cherokee with other users (those dirty rats!!). This means the main trail should be built so all types and skill levels can use it without being exposed to dangerous conditions. The main trail hugging a cliff is probably not the best option, but an optional line that traverses a highly technical section is a great way to satisfy the more advanced riders. (which begs the question, can everyone already flash the lower seminary trail in both directions?)
Speaking of great trail on large tracts of land, I am off to Pulaski County this morning to talk to the Cumberland Cycling Club / Lake Cumberland Trails Foundation about some trail grant money they've just received. Looks like a great new trail system may soon be on the ground down around Somerset.
Have a great day, everyone - and try to enjoy all the shitty trails in Cherokee before it gets too hot!!
(PS - I've not conducted any scientific studies on the subject, but I would imagine that people avoid the forums not because of all the race talk, but rather because of name-calling and hostile sounding exchanges. |
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MEK
Big Ring
Posts:380
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| 06/09/2008 7:27 AM |
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Here is a thought ............
Don't like it? Don't ride it.
Skeered of it? Walk it.
Didn't work on it? Who cares.
My riding style has done a complete 180 since my injury. I have been walking the "KHS" down No Net, I have ridden Montana once since Jan 20th (This day will go down in history) and was skeered. Anything at this point to make it less scary is cool IMHO. That's OK though, I get my fix doubling on those trails more suited to my new "Recreational/Enthusiast Style". No, I am not a racer (Although, even in my recovered state of 70% I can still keep up with most my age) I think you should all change your tampax and enjoy.
PS: A great big hug goes out to those who were stupid enough to work in the 98 degree sweltering heat. I was with you in thought sitting in front of my new 42" 1080p High def W/Surround watching National Treasure 2. (That movie sucked .... way too predictable)
PSS: Whom ever decided to hack down the top of the Bump on the Hogans Trail is Stupid. Please put it back.
PSSS: Any reason you people with the fancy "Team Kits" don't wave or even acknowledge other MTB enthusiasts on the trail? Maybe its the Team Kit? You know .... Sorta like Spider Man not revealing his identity? I'm not dissing you, Just asking. I think that is where the entire "Elitist thingy starts". example: First time rider gulping air through Cherokee and here comes another MTBr in a team kit.
First time rider says: "Hey"
Team Kit: Rides by with look of frustration while shaking his head back and forth as though first timer was blocking his driveway.
Doesn't that sorta fall under Advocacy?
Love ya's
Marvelous
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Chris Ward
Big Ring
Posts:188
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| 06/09/2008 7:34 AM |
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Posted By MEK on 06/09/2008 7:27 AM
Here is a thought ............
Don't like it? Don't ride it.
Skeered of it? Walk it.
Didn't work on it? Who cares.
My riding style has done a complete 180 since my injury. I have been walking the "KHS" down No Net, I have ridden Montana once since Jan 20th (This day will go down in history) and was skeered. Anything at this point to make it less scary is cool IMHO. That's OK though, I get my fix doubling on those trails more suited to my new "Recreational/Enthusiast Style". No, I am not a racer (Although, even in my recovered state of 70% I can still keep up with most my age) I think you should all change your tampax and enjoy.
PS: A great big hug goes out to those who were stupid enough to work in the 98 degree sweltering heat. I was with you in thought sitting in front of my new 42" 1080p High def W/Surround watching National Treasure 2. (That movie sucked .... way too predictable)
PSS: Whom ever decided to hack down the top of the Bump on the Hogans Trail is Stupid. Please put it back.
PSSS: Any reason you people with the fancy "Team Kits" don't wave or even acknowledge other MTB enthusiasts on the trail? Maybe its the Team Kit? You know .... Sorta like Spider Man not revealing his identity? I'm not dissing you, Just asking. I think that is where the entire "Elitist thingy starts". example: First time rider gulping air through Cherokee and here comes another MTBr in a team kit.
First time rider says: "Hey"
Team Kit: Rides by with look of frustration while shaking his head back and forth as though first timer was blocking his driveway.
Doesn't that sorta fall under Advocacy?
Love ya's
Marvelous
It is good that you are riding again.
Debate is good, I'm sometimes wonder if this is the place to have it, but since we don't have regular meetings there is really the only way for most to dialogue about these things
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TWL
Little Ring
Posts:65
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| 06/09/2008 9:37 AM |
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Posted By MEK on 06/09/2008 7:27 AM
Don't like it? Don't ride it.
Skeered of it? Walk it.
Didn't work on it? Who cares.
I been telling you boys this for years. Bout time someone started listening. There's no branch or pebble on the trail that hasn't given me The Fear at one time or another.
It's funny how perceptions are. I love the new reroutes along Hogans Fountain because they flow is good and even a 5th rate poser such as I can get a roll on. I showed the route to my son who thought it was, like, really boring, you know. I slapped him. Hard.
When the traffic is high, as it often is, it's good NOT to have sharp blind turns such as the ones by the bird sanctuary. Running into other cyclists is not good. I got nailed by some blond girl's giant dog on one of those turns. The dog wasn't leashed. Neither was the girl. It was painful.
So I think the work you guys are doing is good.
PS. Reading the stuff written by racers isn't off-putting. It's interesting. Keep up the good work.
PPS. If you encounter soeone on the trails wearing a Papa John's kit, there's a good chance it will be some self-absorbed butt hole. It just seems to me.
That's all I gots to say about that. |
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smac
Coaster Brake
Posts:16
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| 06/09/2008 10:46 AM |
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Posted By TWL on 06/09/2008 9:37 AM
...
PPS. If you encounter soeone on the trails wearing a Papa John's kit, there's a good chance it will be some self-absorbed butt hole. It just seems to me.
That's all I gots to say about that. Actually it's probably some poser who bought the kit off e-bay since Papa John's is no longer.
I used to think those guys were butt holes too, until I got out and started working with them and riding with them at the Cyclog-Cross course. Come to find our they're good guys who get a bad rap by people who haven't worked or ridden with them.
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Tonybob
Big Ring
Posts:311
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| 06/09/2008 12:47 PM |
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Posted By MEK on 06/09/2008 7:27 AM PSSS: Any reason you people with the fancy "Team Kits" don't wave or even acknowledge other MTB enthusiasts on the trail? Maybe its the Team Kit? You know .... Sorta like Spider Man not revealing his identity? I'm not dissing you, Just asking.
last time we saw you riding i believe rusty nick and myself all said hi and you just sat there with your mouth hanging open. must have been all the pretty colors and shiny bikes had you mesmerized. but sorry some racer boy hurt your feeling marv. |
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RIC0
Big Ring
Posts:314
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sumwaresin, KY
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| 06/09/2008 1:07 PM |
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| Geeeez, I"m glad I'm turning roadie once my back heals up, this thread is outa control.. LOL |
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RJ Reynolds
Big Ring
Posts:127
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| 06/09/2008 1:09 PM |
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PSSS: Any reason you people with the fancy "Team Kits" don't wave or even acknowledge other MTB enthusiasts on the trail? Maybe its the Team Kit? You know .... Sorta like Spider Man not revealing his identity? I'm not dissing you, Just asking. I think that is where the entire "Elitist thingy starts". example: First time rider gulping air through Cherokee and here comes another MTBr in a team kit.
First time rider says: "Hey"
Team Kit: Rides by with look of frustration while shaking his head back and forth as though first timer was blocking his driveway.
Doesn't that sorta fall under Advocacy?
Love ya's
Marvelous
Well you seemed to have done an excellent job generalizing the racing community with that statement. I ride in a "team" kit and wave, give a head nod, or at least acknowledge just about every person I see when I am out riding road or mtb's. And there has been plenty of times where I have gotten no response to those that are not in a "team" kit. So really it has nothing to do with what clothes you ride in just the person. But thanks for including all of us in that statement. |
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Tonybob
Big Ring
Posts:311
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| 06/09/2008 1:14 PM |
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| BC, you bring up HMBA, what trail up there is technical? I am thinking about Ferdinand, Brown County, Nebo, North Vernon, Town Run, Whatever It Is in Fort Wayne, France Park, all come to mind as trails I am familiar with and none are technical in the least. And arent you the one who used to work in north vernon yet never rode at Muscatatuck, prolly the only trail that might be somewhat technical? |
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Rowbear
Big Ring
Posts:373
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Lexington, KY
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| 06/09/2008 1:40 PM |
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Posted By bigcountry on 06/09/2008 12:18 AM
there are races in indiana...but it isn't racing that keeps the people coming back to the trails in the great hoosier state...it's a grassroots effort to make people aware of fun and technical trails.
I've ridden at Warsaw, North Vernon, Portage, Town Run, Brown Co., Ferdinand and New Castle all soley because of a race. I never would have driven that far just to check out a trail but after I get introduced to the trail, through the race, it shows me how awesome the trail is and gives me the motivation to drive back to ride the trails for fun. Particularly Brown Co., and North Vernon because they're were close enough to Louisville, and super fun.
Regardless, it is clear that some people just have something stuck up their butt and they're going to complain about anything that is done or said by those who are outside of their little disenchanted clique. |
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stupidbike
Granny Gear
Posts:25
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| 06/09/2008 3:56 PM |
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| I'll take a sustainable trail over a 'technical' trail any day. I'll take a trail that sheds moisture and holds up to use over roots any day. Of course, I'm spoiled. |
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zherz
Little Ring
Posts:61
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l-ville
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| 06/09/2008 4:33 PM |
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my 2,
I don't know how anyone can bitch about no net re-route. A year ago you weren't even aloud to ride it, or that whole half of the park. Now we got all new trails that we are allowed to ride. Plus a nice working relationship with the OWNERS/OPERATORS of the park was created to let us maintain and build new trails. So were lucky to even be allowed to ride there, let alone expand and update the trails. |
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MEK
Big Ring
Posts:380
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| 06/09/2008 5:26 PM |
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Your right RJ.
On a brighter note. Just got back from No-Net. Great Job. I think the trail is perfect.
If someone finds the top of the bump from the Hogans fountain trail please return it. |
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BarryL
Little Ring
Posts:66
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| 06/09/2008 9:20 PM |
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Posted By zherz on 06/09/2008 4:33 PM my 2,
I don't know how anyone can bitch about no net re-route. A year ago you weren't even aloud to ride it, or that whole half of the park. Now we got all new trails that we are allowed to ride. Plus a nice working relationship with the OWNERS/OPERATORS of the park was created to let us maintain and build new trails. So were lucky to even be allowed to ride there, let alone expand and update the trails.
Agreed. Many don't remember the darker days where we almost lost priviledges in the park altogether...
We've come a long way, and I think primarily it's due to the new leadership of this group, that tries to remain positive, and look for ways to bring us together, rather than tear us apart...
cudos!
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russell g
Big Ring
Posts:363
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Louisville, KY
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| 06/09/2008 11:39 PM |
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Oh yeah back in the day. There was a time in the early 90's when mtn biking was outlawed in Cherokee Park. It wasn't totally clear what was legal and what wasn't, I apparently was on an illegal trail when I exited the trail 50 was waiting for me I pretended not to see him and proceeded to the next section then got the siren woop woop noise, along with the PA announcement "YOU ON THE DIRT BIKE...STOP RIGHT THERE!" He threatened me with taking my bike fines even hauling me downtown. he took my name, at the time all it could think of was Ian Mckaye. Well he let me go, I guess he realized I was just a minor threat. I think we have come a long way baby. Is my nose really that big..... (giant size sniff sniff)
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Dark Helmet
Little Ring
Posts:57
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Straight outta the 'Ville!
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| 06/09/2008 11:50 PM |
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Funny Rusty, this is my racing creed:
We're not the first, I hope we're not the last
'Cause I know we're all heading for that adult crash
The times is so little, the time belongs to us
Why is everybody in such a fucking rush?
I tell the cops that I'm G.G. Allin. Does Chris Bald still live here?
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Evil will always triumph because good is dumb |
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