RIC0
Big Ring
Posts:320
Registered Users
sumwaresin, KY
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| 10/20/2008 10:55 AM |
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Myself, Wolfie and Koolaid did a trip up to browncounty yesterday and all I can say is WOW. It was mine and wolfies first time there. We got there early enough to have Sally Marchand Collins be our trail/tour guide. She is a 24 hour solo Mountainbike racer, Female Pro racer and one of the sweetest nicest people I've ever met on the trail. We couldn't have asked for a better day or guide to take us from the parking lot to the end of hesitation point and back. It was the funnest 27 miles of biking I've ever done and can't wait to go back up there. I"m hoping to get lucky and have Sally lead us around again. |
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chuck_clark
Big Ring
Posts:345
Registered Users
Louisville
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| 10/20/2008 11:29 AM |
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You turned around at Hesitation Point?
You missed several miles of what may be the best trails in the woods. Cross the road and continue on. The pump track at the end is worth the distance. |
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ricdix
Little Ring
Posts:57
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| 10/20/2008 1:31 PM |
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I agree. The section of trail between Hesitation Point and the camp ground may the best. If you logged 27 miles you probably hit it.
Did Sally take you to the new unmarked advanced trail? One word... Pucker.
I hope to make it back soon. |
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gnawbonelefty
Training Wheels
Posts:8
Registered Users
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| 10/20/2008 1:57 PM |
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They rode out to the campground, I saw ya'll out on the "walnut trail" as it is now known.
if you ride one of everything including the newest expert trail it's close to 29 miles.
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nick
Little Ring
Posts:70
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| 10/20/2008 2:02 PM |
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| 29 miles of purpose built singletrack. i used to be envious of all the louisville guys and there diversity of trails but its quickly becoming you guys gnawbonelefty. that place is so much fun. |
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gnawbonelefty
Training Wheels
Posts:8
Registered Users
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| 10/20/2008 2:15 PM |
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Brown County with the state park, 1.5 miles from my front door,
gnawbone camp, valley branch literally out my backdoor
and nebo/hickory 10miles away, it's as good as mountain biking gets west of appalachia and east or the rockies.
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WebGuy
Big Ring
Posts:366
Administrators
Louisville, KY
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| 10/20/2008 2:17 PM |
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| You guys are making me want to camp up there again this Fall. We took the bus up last season before the Gun Club CX race in Cincy. Spent the weekend and all we did was ride, eat, drink and sleep. Absolutely some of the best single track I've ever ridden here or anywhere else. |
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Steven Webster
Web Guy, BikeClicks.com |
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RIC0
Big Ring
Posts:320
Registered Users
sumwaresin, KY
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| 10/20/2008 3:02 PM |
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| I thought the end was hesitation point but I guess not it's the campground. So yes we covered all the trails except half of the new expert section. Chuck ya knucklehead didn't you read that we had the best trail goddess in the world to lead us around and that we went to the end of hesitation point. You think she wouldn't take us thru the best part??? :^) I loved all the obstacles, which I hit everyone of them and the possible, if you dare doubles, to jump on the trails. Coming from a motocross background I was able to clear 2 but did slightly case one of them as I came up a little short. I"m thinking of going back in 2 weeks. |
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chuck_clark
Big Ring
Posts:345
Registered Users
Louisville
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| 10/20/2008 5:57 PM |
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| By your repeated us of the term trail goddess, i didn't exactly know if you were paying attention to the trail landmarks or the view in front of you. 8^) |
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seenvic
Coaster Brake
Posts:18
Registered Users
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| 10/21/2008 12:49 PM |
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I want to go to BC over T-giving sometime.
I'll be in Lexington looking to drive over. Prolly pick up Britt in Louisville on the way.
Anyone interested? |
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Chris Ward
Big Ring
Posts:217
Registered Users
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| 10/21/2008 3:00 PM |
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| Brown County is great. It should be noted that Rob and Alex had great volunteer support when building the trails at Brown County. We have a similar opportunity at Obannon Woods, but only 40 minutes away from Louisville. With good involvment from other mountain bikers we could have a trail system that rivals Brown County here locally. |
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seenvic
Coaster Brake
Posts:18
Registered Users
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| 10/21/2008 4:37 PM |
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I am not discounting volunteers played a role in Brown County.
But the fellas I met in Utah who claimed to have built the trails in Brown County sure made it sound alot like they got an RTP Grant for $100,000 and spent it building the trails y'all are raving on.
Then they got another $250K from the governors office to build more trails up there.
I've built as a volunteer and I've built as a pro. I've ridden what volunteers built and what pros have built.
I'd rather build with pros and I'd rather ride what was built by pros.
Capitalism is what built America. Trails are no different. It took a while for this to sink with me, but once it did I was convinced.
How does a mile of finished trail a week sound?
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Chris Ward
Big Ring
Posts:217
Registered Users
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| 10/21/2008 5:54 PM |
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Posted By seenvic on 10/21/2008 4:37 PM I am not discounting volunteers played a role in Brown County.
But the fellas I met in Utah who claimed to have built the trails in Brown County sure made it sound alot like they got an RTP Grant for $100,000 and spent it building the trails y'all are raving on.
Then they got another $250K from the governors office to build more trails up there.
I've built as a volunteer and I've built as a pro. I've ridden what volunteers built and what pros have built.
I'd rather build with pros and I'd rather ride what was built by pros.
Capitalism is what built America. Trails are no different. It took a while for this to sink with me, but once it did I was convinced.
How does a mile of finished trail a week sound?
Sure, but I have had more than one conversation with both Rob and Alex. I know that they had many weekends of 30 or more volunteers turning out to build the trail in brown county. I know based on my talks with them about O'bannon woods that the volunteer effort was crucial to the Brown county effort. Based on my understanding it takes $10,000 to build one mile of trail, I think you have said that on here before. With that said a $100K would have built ten miles of trail, so were did the other 17 miles of trail come from? The $250K was a recent award from the state and as far as I know has not been used as of yet. Some of that $250K is coming to O'bannon Woods.
I would love for the pros to come and build the trails, that would be great. I can't think of many of days I didn't get to ride because of trail day that streched out for the whole day, or trips that I have turned down because I had a trail day scheduled. I would much rather let the pros do it. Unfortnately that is not reality for us.
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seenvic
Coaster Brake
Posts:18
Registered Users
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| 10/22/2008 9:11 AM |
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Singletrack can costs $10,000 and up per mile, I agree. It typically costs at least this much if done in a traditional per foot basis by a contractor.
But sometimes you end with someone willing to do it for an hourly rate and this is what was explained to me when I talked to a guy named Paul who (I think) is/was Pres of HMBA. I was amazed at first, but then after giving it some thought I remembered building 17 miles with $100,000 and prolly lost money when taking into account wear and tear on machines we own. I got the feeling from my conversation that Alex was more interested in trails than money. I can understand that.
I don't mean to diss volunteers altogether. I just finished a project in which we used 2,500 volunteer hours over a 2 year period. It was great, the volunteers keep coming out in droves. Many told me they couldn't believe the progess being made in between the volunteer days and this motivated them to continue to be part of the project. Many call this hybrid (sp?) contracting and I am a huge proponet of it.
My stance is pretty clear. What I've seen work well is the majority of the work being done day in/day out by professionals making a good wage. This is complemented by a large volunteer effort that cuts costs, increases "ownership" of the trails and creates a community of concerned trail users.
I'd love to come to KY/IN with my crew and work. Alex has worked with one of my partners and if we weren't so busy this summer/fall prolly would have worked something out with HBMA/Alex.
I still want to ride there. You (Chris) gonna be around over T-giving? I am thinking the Saturday of T-giving weekend, early. I gotta be home for dinner in Lexington. |
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Chris Ward
Big Ring
Posts:217
Registered Users
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| 10/22/2008 1:38 PM |
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If it works out that I am in town over thanksgiving weekend I would be happy to ride with you. Keep in mind though usually at that stage in the game, trails are sloppy around here. Brown county is a great trail system and drains well but I have had bad experiences up in brown county with freeze thaw, I think it affects up there sooner than here in Louisville. I pretty much don’t usually go up to brown county after Nov 1. I don’t start going up there again until early may to late may. You should try coming up when conditions are better.
I agree that having the pros to do the trail work, I don't think anybody could or would try to argue that volunteer labor is the better way to go. It is an important component but should never be relied on entirely. Unfortunately the State of Kentucky is not as progressive as Indiana at putting money towards trail projects. Metro Parks is already strap for cash because of the situation with the city, so they don't really have money to put towards projects. Metro parks recently received a dual RTP grant for Waverly and JMF which the JMF portion is going to be used for horse trails, so I don't know how hard that will make it for KYMBA to apply for grants for these same parks. I believe we are finally going to be given access to the JMF, which will be huge and open up new opportunities for us, but because of the lack of funds and Mountain biker support in this area, it could be years before we have a ridable trail system in the forest. It has taken 4 years two build 3 to 4 miles of trail at Waverly using mainly volunteer labor. I would say two miles of that trail that has been built at Waverly was done using the dingo plus volunteer labor.
I would love to know what other grants are out there for trail building, I would also love to see the local bike shops contribute (I don't understand why the bike shops have never approached us). I would also like to see some of the wealthy individuals in our ranks that don't do trail work contribute more than just a membership fee. We have potential to have access to more than 20,000 acres at O'bannon woods, and potential access to JMF. The Louisville area has the potential to be a regional Mountain bike destination if we had the support needed to develop trail systems in O’bannon Woods and JMF. We just need the support of the local mountain bikers (donation of time to trail work, or donation of money to pay pros to build the trails) help from the government (grants) to get the trails built and support (money, advertising of trail days, and help supply labor trail work) from those who are potentially the largest benefactor, buisnesses that make money off mountain bikers
Keep me in the loop for on the Thanksgiving day weekend visit. It would be good to meet you.
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RIC0
Big Ring
Posts:320
Registered Users
sumwaresin, KY
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| 10/22/2008 2:00 PM |
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| $10,000 a mile............ W T F If that's the case then I'm going to quit my job and start building trails for a living. Do I get to smoke the guanja while building the trail because if someone is paying that much money for a mile of trail. I'd say $9,000 is going to pot, mountain dews and twinkies and the rest toward the actual trail. |
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gnawbonelefty
Training Wheels
Posts:8
Registered Users
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| 10/22/2008 2:53 PM |
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Posted By RIC0 on 10/22/2008 2:00 PM
$10,000 a mile............ W T F If that's the case then I'm going to quit my job and start building trails for a living. Do I get to smoke the guanja while building the trail because if someone is paying that much money for a mile of trail. I'd say $9,000 is going to pot, mountain dews and twinkies and the rest toward the actual trail.
Ok, I've read lots ignorant posts on the kymba board over the years, and in a way it's reassuring that that tradition continues.
It's clear to me that you have no idea what it takes to properly
design and build a trail. figure 3 people say $2500/week for salary, another $2500/week for equipment rental Then add in crew room,board and travel expenses another $1000/person there. Then throw in bridge and rock work materials, and there is your 10k. I'd think you'd need some volunteer hours to match to get in at 10k/mile.
But If you can build top quality trail for $1000/mile start a company under cut all others in the business by charging $5000/mile and then retire early. But you won't because you can't, you won't even come close.
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seenvic
Coaster Brake
Posts:18
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| 10/22/2008 2:57 PM |
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Posted By RIC0 on 10/22/2008 2:00 PM
$10,000 a mile............ W T F If that's the case then I'm going to quit my job and start building trails for a living. Do I get to smoke the guanja while building the trail because if someone is paying that much money for a mile of trail. I'd say $9,000 is going to pot, mountain dews and twinkies and the rest toward the actual trail.
$10,000 per mile is cheap. That less than $2 per linear foot. I usually start quoting $2.10/foot if it sounds like an easy job. Throw in some real mtns and alot of rock, and it quickly becomes more than $3 per linear foot.
"Someone" is paying it....all over the country. We've had steady work all year, and couldn't go to Brown County this summer/fall because we were too busy building in PA (Raystown Lake, see your latest IMBA newsletter). We are in North Carolina now doing some hiking only trails.
You'd be surprised how quickly expenses rack up. Machines costs money, gas/diesel, maintenance on the machines can kill ya, insurance and labor - all these add up to make these rates mandatory or you lose money.
At $10,000 per mile, it isn't the home run you think it is.
I got into it to build trails near my house. I got those in spades now and stick with it because my two partners make a living doing it and I make enough (very little) to keep me interested. I like owning a business involved with trails/bikes/nature as it fits my lifestyle.
I didn't get into building trails to get rich. But it has enriched my life immeasurably (sp?)
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RIC0
Big Ring
Posts:320
Registered Users
sumwaresin, KY
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| 10/22/2008 3:48 PM |
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| I've spent many hours building trails for free so I know what it can take. Price may vary in different areas. Over mountains I can easily see the cost going way up, in this area that number just seems reaaaaaly high. If your traveling all over the country with a crew then I can see the cost being high. I guess spending time building trails in Waverly park again for free and miles of trails at that I don't see us using up $10,000 per mile that we've built. Didn't many to piss you off knawbone or anyone that has done trail work. I'm not just a rider that hasn't sweat, bled or woke up sore from trail work. |
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seenvic
Coaster Brake
Posts:18
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| 10/22/2008 4:23 PM |
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I saw those pics of Obannon Woods on the HMBA forum.
OMFG - beautiful!
That place looks killer.
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