russell g
Big Ring
Posts:376
Registered Users
Louisville, KY
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| 07/07/2008 9:26 PM |
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2 things I hate the most
1. Horse Damaged trails
2. race cancellations
read more from Cave Run Bike Shop http://www.caverunbikeshop.com/racesevents.html
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chuck_clark
Big Ring
Posts:343
Registered Users
Louisville
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| 07/07/2008 10:22 PM |
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After endoing into a huge, nasty, smelly mudpit on a trail appropriately named Hogpen and later losing my shoe in the same mudpit trying to step out of it, I can attest to how bad those trails are in places.
I just don't understand how the powers that be can turn a blind eye to the damage at their doorstep. Freaking amazing! I think if those trails were my only choice to ride, I'd be a Rico, I mean a roadie full-time. Or, start knitting.....
Sorry Gonzo, Jim. I know the former is likely pulling his hair out about now.
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Chris Ward
Big Ring
Posts:217
Registered Users
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| 07/08/2008 12:51 AM |
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| The fact that we cancle races when conditions are not good is what sets us apart from the equestrians. Having races in the mud brings us almost down to their level, I say almost because are bikes don't shit all over the trail. |
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nick
Little Ring
Posts:70
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| 07/08/2008 9:29 AM |
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| man that is horrible. caney loop used to be a destination for beginners and speed freaks all alike. then you got iron furnace that i don't even want to think about. i'm sure its just as bad right now. they came in with their bull dozers and made caney loop about 30 foot wide so they could ride side by side or some crap.....graveled a good chunk of it because that is always the most natural trail surface of course. looks like they tried that locking block in places which would probably work if it was done everywhere (expensive). i've traveld 4 hrs or so several times in the past to go there, but i dont see that happening anytime in the future. segregation is probably the only way to stop that and i bet that means mtn bikers loose caney loop (which wouldn't really be a loss now) and iron furnace (which should ever support horse back riders anyway with that climb to get to the top and all the damange and washouts they cause to the rock/trail bed surfaces up there) |
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giant535
Tricycle
Posts:4
Registered Users
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| 07/08/2008 12:31 PM |
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| I've been an active member of all three groups at some point in my life. I still ride horses (on approved, well marked trails) and hike with my wife once a week. I've been to numerous meetings, rallies, demostrations, fund-raisers for each cause and fault for trail conditions lies with one, and only one, group...The Forest Service/Kentucky State Parks. As soon as hikers, bikers, horse riders point fingers and argue, the Parks Department's win. We pay taxes, fees, licenses, etc. for park systems that are usable and they should be usable by all. One united stand for seperate, well-maintained, well-marked trails is the solution. Do not let the Park Managment System pit us against each other and leave the party with our tax dollars and no responsibility to provide service. My personal solution is this: I will no longer pay park admission fees, I will no longer camp at a Ky park, I will no longer perform maintainence on a park-owned trail, I will no longer purchase fishing licenses, day passes, parking stickers, etc. And...FYI, numerous horse clubs are taking their business to Ind. or TN. I suggest we do the same. |
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The Yeti
Granny Gear
Posts:43
Registered Users
Lafayette, IN
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| 07/08/2008 2:40 PM |
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Posted By giant535 on 07/08/2008 12:31 PM
And...FYI, numerous horse clubs are taking their business to Ind. or TN. I suggest we do the same.
I ask that you take your horses to TN. I guess the good thing about most cycling trails in indiana is that horses are not allowed. It's not about tax dollars or groups against one and other. If you look at a hiking/cycling trail and then look at a horse trail, you'd be insane if you didn't notice the difference. I don't disrespect horse people, they just need their own trail system. It's been proven in land studies that bikes are not nearly as destructive as everyone thinks. Look on http://www.imba.com/resources/science/index.html, it's documented. |
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I love long walks up mountains next to my bike... |
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Rod
Little Ring
Posts:83
Registered Users
Morehead
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| 07/08/2008 8:37 PM |
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I haven't ridden the entire loop this year because it's that bad. I've had a couple friends ride it, but it has rained a lot since then so it's a mud pit again. The horses have pot holed the entire trail system. As you can see from the pictures, the yard stick gives the pictures some meaning, it's impossible to ride the trail.
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russell g
Big Ring
Posts:376
Registered Users
Louisville, KY
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| 07/08/2008 10:25 PM |
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| I can only blame the parks for allowing horses on any public land. cave run is mosquito and horse fly infested thanks to horses. How? you might ask. thousands and thousands of pock marks filled with water that wont drain because it was tamped down by a huge animal with a fat guy on its back. Fill in the holes with horse piss and top off with horse shit and Taddaa....Mosquito/horsefly heaven. Forget about hiking a horse trail, you will twist an ankle as you run from the swarm. Mtn biking on a horse trail? what are you an idiot? |
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chuck_clark
Big Ring
Posts:343
Registered Users
Louisville
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| 07/09/2008 12:11 AM |
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What Rusty is trying to say is that we have rarely found a trail in these parts that will hold up to horse traffic. I know it works well in other areas. I went to Idaho and with so much trail, high desert conditions and the equestrians' preferance for double track, it worked out fine.
Several years ago, I remember Gene, myself and a couple of others working hours and hours bench cutting a section of trail at Taylorsville Lake State Park. It was a perfect section with just the right taper and down to the mineral earth. The dirt was just a bit soft that day given it was winter, but I would have ridden it on a bike. After all this work, three horses come along and just tore the %&^& out of the trail. We were all demoralized right there. I worked some more on this trail afterward, but when the park guy said we could not have the hike-bike trail after doing all the work to restore the multi-use trail, I walked away. It wasn't worth my time any longer.
On anything less than perfect trail in the utmost dry conditions, horses cause major damage. All that weight focused on such a small contact patch is a recipe for trail damage. That is hard to argue with. Consistently, we have also seen gatherings of equestrians with little regard for how wet the trail was. This was another reason I bowed out of the Taylorsville project. There was a big idea of a hotel to be built and major trail rides to occur no matter what the weather. Since people will be driving in from all over, you wouldn't be able to close the trail. They would get mad I guess.
Similarly, walking or riding through poo doesn't make the rest of the trail users very happy. Horses in urban environments wear those fancy diapers, why can't trail-riding equestrians do the same with their horses?
Hey, I'm pro-IMBA all the way, but I just don't see many situations on our trails where horse and non-horse traffic working. Caney is a prime example of this. |
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MEK
Big Ring
Posts:389
Registered Users
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| 07/09/2008 6:57 AM |
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I think what Chuck is trying to say is:
Horses = Bad
MTB = Good |
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tazman3
Tricycle
Posts:1
Registered Users
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| 07/09/2008 8:40 AM |
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I'm going to weigh in on this one, even though I'm new to this forum. When we hike, we have to clean up our mess...if we bring dogs, we have to clean up our mess...if we bike, we have to clean up our mess...But a horse rider can let his horse piss and shit all over trail, and I'll end up stepping in it every time as a hiker...but they don't have to clean it up. I guarantee if the park system made horse riders abide by these same rules, in other words clean up their animals shit, they wouldn't ride the trails anymore.
And personally, and this is my opinion like it or not, the rules aren't fair either, the horse rules the trails in KY, you are instructed to move over for the horse, I had my kids on a trail once, and a horse come a hair of stepping on my kid, even though we moved well out of the way. I told the bastard riding that if his horse stepped on my kid I would sue his ass and have his horse euthinzed. I'm sorry...I despise horses and their riders most of the time. They think they own the trails, and they are the MOST DESTRUCTIVE ANIMALS PERIOD. Humans don't do near as much damage as they do, yet we are stuck sharing the trails with them.
EDIT: I know my post was a little harsh, but let's face it, I'm just saying what every hiker/biker thinks but don't have the guts to say. And I'm just not hiding behind a username on a forum either, I've told people on the trail and in public, and have almost been in a couple of altercations because of it...lol...they don't like it when you pick on their precious animals! |
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s0ckeyeus
Big Ring
Posts:183
Registered Users
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| 07/09/2008 9:02 AM |
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I think horse riders also contribute more than their fair share of trash to the forest. Trash in the woods is something that really bugs me. The horse crap doesn't affect me too much, as long as it's not all over the place.
I think multi-use trails can exist in more arid climates where the soil is a lot harder. I was out in Wyoming last week and hiked a trail that seemed to be somewhat popular with the horseback riders. I also hiked an ATV trail. Both were in great shape for biking, but there's a huge difference between the dry canyons of WY and the "hollers" of KY.
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Comanche
Coaster Brake
Posts:16
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| 07/09/2008 9:11 AM |
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| I am absolutely no fan of horses either. However, in a state that calls itself the horse capital of the world, are we tilting at windmills? |
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PR
Big Ring
Posts:516
Registered Users
Jackson County
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| 07/09/2008 9:37 AM |
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User group specific trails are great. Given the current political and financial environment I'm guessing that any such trails will have to be totally constructed and maintained by the group(s) that use them. The biggest thrust of the adventure tourism will be towards multiuse trails. Just like most of the trail system within the DBNF is. And a multiuse trail is a trail. I'm all for as much access as is possible. If we want mtb specific stuff, we will probably have to do it ourself. At places like Cave Run, the responsible enities need to revamp the rules on access/useage by horse groups. No single user group should be allowed to devalue a tourism asset to the point that it lessens the use by other groups, or causes significant environmental impact. This would be no different if there was an area that was being damaged by mtb use; then mtb access and useage would have to be reconsidered.
As a general rule, some of the most pleasant folks I meet in the DBNF are trailriders (horseback). The woods are definately a finite resource, and we all need to accomodate each other if possible......
My county occasionally hosts trailrides of 100 or more riders. They cancel if the trails are wet, but even when it's dry, they still chew up the trail to some degree. Then the trails are packed right back down by atvs. They work great.
Sometimes/someplaces multiuse is'nt so bad. |
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giant535
Tricycle
Posts:4
Registered Users
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| 07/09/2008 9:40 AM |
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| Sorry, but my main point was lost in my previous post. We must fight for "seperate, well-maintained, well-marked trails" I'll also add that fines/ticketing by park rangers would be good. |
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the weak link
Big Ring
Posts:270
Registered Users
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| 07/09/2008 10:09 AM |
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I love horses.
When marinated and cooked slowly over low to medium heat, they can be really tasty. |
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the weak link
Big Ring
Posts:270
Registered Users
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| 07/09/2008 10:23 AM |
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| BTW, I thought the letter was extremely well-written. Kudos to the Haights for at least trying. |
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Chris Ward
Big Ring
Posts:217
Registered Users
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| 07/09/2008 11:03 AM |
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Any time we are involved in Advocacy efforts we almost always ask for a segregated trail system for equestrians, similar to what is at Otter Creek. The best scenario for an area that allows horses is that the horse trails do not intersect or combine with bike hike trails anywhere in the park. Based on the Taylorsville lake incident I will not work on multi use trails, I try to avoid riding them also as they usually suck anyways because of the horse damage. I don't understand land managers and there love of horses. If you care anything about the land you are trying to manage you have recognize that horse use is detrimental to the land, even on properly built trails. the only thing I can figure is it must be the money. I couldn't imagine trying to preserve an area and allowing horse use in that area. Any area that I have ever seen horse use, is eroded muddy mess, the water quality has to be poor to.
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TheWaverlyGhost
Little Ring
Posts:89
Registered Users
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| 07/09/2008 12:08 PM |
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More Forest Service trailbuilding antics:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=69072
250,000 hours of trailbuilding canceled for tolerance and diversity that ended up with the "...five arrests. A government vehicle was damaged and one officer was treated for injuries at a local hospital"
Lt. Gov Mongiardo gave the keynote address at a convention I attended yesterday and talked passionately about his cross-KY trail program and mentioned mountain bikes several times. Then went on to say how great it would be for his wife to be able to ride a horse across the state, so I'm not sure where that gets us...
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The Yeti
Granny Gear
Posts:43
Registered Users
Lafayette, IN
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| 07/09/2008 12:55 PM |
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Posted By the weak link on 07/09/2008 10:09 AM
I love horses.
When marinated and cooked slowly over low to medium heat, they can be really tasty. I miss your posts.....I was hoping you could slide something in there about dead cats too.
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I love long walks up mountains next to my bike... |
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